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  • #76
    Originally posted by redred View Post

    That is the most asinine statement you've ever made, and completely irrelevant to the current conversation.

    First of all, slander & libel all fall under the category of Defamation in Canada. Quebec has slightly different views towards defamation than that of the rest of the country and can be compared similarly to the US laws.

    Secondly, to present a defamation lawsuit against an American, it would have to be presented in the state in which the defendant resides. At that point, the defamation suit is held to the standards of the laws in the state in which the defendant resides. At that point, any lawsuit brought forward would be considered Libel.

    Do you just like to argue for the sake of arguing? Do you ALWAYS have to be right??
    How is it irrelevant? Someone tried correcting me and they were wrong, I am referring to slander as in English common law...

    slander: statements that are public but are false
    libel: statements that are made to a broader audience that are true

    Both with the intent to defame. Thanks for the support?
    Last edited by doverosx; 02-11-2019, 07:35 PM.

    Comment


    • #77
      As for dynos, I would like to be proven wrong because that would be good for everyone; if that’s the truth. I’ll have to check my multiair logs but what would I want to see?

      Your hypothesis is that the car pulls power. You claimed that I measured air mass, I didn’t nor have you Greg. I DID log what multiair is doing and I don’t see any behaviour that is unique on road and off road.

      So what are the test conditions and variables that I need to be looking for to prove you correct?

      This is how I see it and why I’m digging my heels in here - probably to the detriment of friendships but are you really my friends? You have a reasonable hypothesis. You presented an observation but did not show the mechanism by which the results may have changed. The Greek guys described how accurately the MM ECU is able to measure torque, so I looked at the various dynos and the results on them vs what the ECU calculated. That led me to take the red pill and start some black box testing on and off the dyno which...replicating environment variables is a pain and takes a lot of patience. Unfortunately, I have not been able to replicate or observe any mechanism by which power is reduced under the same load and environment inputs. I believe I have done my due diligence for the tests and gone beyond most owners here or otherwise to prove you correct.

      I can go to a 4 wheel linked dyno in Toronto or Montreal but I’d prefer to hop on a dimsport dyno because I think the goal posts will be moved and actions to assume what I have and haven’t done, to discredit me will continue.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by doverosx View Post

        I am referring to slander as in English common law...
        Speaking of moving goal posts, you nor I nor Greg nor Toby nor Chris nor Stacey nor anyone participating in this thread is in England.

        Trevor used to be, but he isn't here.



        Comment


        • #79
          I'm sorry, but the only discussion I'm seeing is Doversox stating that he doesn't agree with EC so he implies that he's going to sue. Just doesn't seem conducive to a good discussion!
          As for Tork, his statement of fact is that EC's dyno's and statements are wrong, but we need to just take his word for it because he will not post any dyno's or info to prove it.
          Am I understanding this 'DISCUSSION correctly?

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by jerseyboy View Post
            I'm sorry, but the only discussion I'm seeing is Doversox stating that he doesn't agree with EC so he implies that he's going to sue. Just doesn't seem conducive to a good discussion!
            As for Tork, his statement of fact is that EC's dyno's and statements are wrong, but we need to just take his word for it because he will not post any dyno's or info to prove it.
            Am I understanding this 'DISCUSSION correctly?
            That seems about correct.

            The fighting right now is tearing apart the community. There are several issues both myself and people I know are working on with our cars, and nobody's posting publicly anymore because it always invites a fight if it is anything to do with a tune or certain vendor's parts.

            Yes, EC and Tork are competitors, we get that.

            Jumping into every thread, every forum, into instragram, facebook, etc, with broad declarations that this or that tuner is ripping people off and lying to everyone does zero to win real business, but has a real chilling effect on discussion within the community.

            Personally, I've talked to pretty much 98% of the players involved in this whole fight privately, and there's a lot of personal axes people have to grind. Know what I say? Tough shit. Your own personal axes to grind aren't worth tearing the community apart. People have gotten their feelings hurt when things didn't go their own way, when other people lashed out in anger, when their cars didn't run like they expected, when someone didn't smile right on facebook, when this or that person threatens to sue that other person, blah blah fucking blah. Some people, it seems cannot be happy saying "Hey I'm John Q. Public and here's what I believe" without having to also say "My opponent, John Q. Smith, is a lying sack of shit who wants to eat your babies".

            It's total and utter BULL SHIT. Most of the community couldn't give 2 shits about the personal arguments between "community leaders", right or wrong.

            What does happen though is that people quit participating. People quit contributing. People quit taking risks. People stop admitting publicly when something on their cars breaks. People stop trusting anybody in the community. The community falls apart.

            I guess for some that doesn't really matter. They would rather see the world burn.

            Comment


            • bsd103
              bsd103 commented
              Editing a comment
              Tork vs. EC has become like the current political climate in the community, it's insane lol

          • #81
            Originally posted by aelfwyne View Post


            What does happen though is that people quit participating. People quit contributing. People quit taking risks. People stop admitting publicly when something on their cars breaks. People stop trusting anybody in the community. The community falls apart.
            Unfortunately that’s very true. I’ve got around 8 or 9 posts on this forum. I loved participating in the conversation before, but lately I’m far less enthused. Mostly I’m still a little upset over the sudden closing of FT and the loss of all that info (a large part of that tech library and P-code info was due to a LOT of my time and energy compiling it). I used it as a personal resource numerous times and it’s just gone - POOF!

            Anyways, I hope this thread continues on with legitimate discussion and stays on topic from this point (sorry for derailing it further). This community used to be about helping each other out and pushing the boundaries of these ridiculous little 1.4L engines. Let’s get it back to that and continue to innovate and make some legitimate progress.

            Carry on gents.

            Comment


            • bsd103
              bsd103 commented
              Editing a comment
              Hope you do feel more inclined to contribute to some good discussion/posts/how tos again in the future. What you've contributed on the old forums has not been forgotten!

          • #82
            There is a lot to cover from the short time I've been off line. The thread has gone in at least three different directions, so I'll have to make separate post to deal with them.

            First of all, I will address the Dart tune that was actually the subject mentioned in the title of this thread. This video is essentially a commercial for Tork. Although he presents himself as an independent observer, I would argue that by any reasonable definition Eddie works for Tork and this video is an advertisement.

            On to the substance of the video. First of all, the EC tune on that Dart was an off the shelf Phase 2 tune. I have no way of knowing that it was put on correctly as it's clear in the video that they made a copy of the EC tune, sold the handheld and put it on with John's hardware. There are a lot of variables right there, but lets assume that it's legit and that was our Phase 2 tune.

            Well,, so what? We have said over an over that it will pull power on a 2wd dyno at the high end, which is exactly what it looks like it's doing. It puts down around 195whp before it gets pulled back, which is about in harmony with numerous customer dyno pulls on 2wd dyno jets. There is nothing earth shattering here. Their claim that this was some special modified big turbo tune is simply incorrect. I don't know anything about an email that John says he has, but I've seen the files for that Dart, and the hottest tune we ever made for that car was our standard Phase 2 tune.

            As for John's "standard" Dart tune putting out 212, it's hard to know if that's legit or not. It's pretty easy to manipulate results on a Dynojet especially with all the cuts in the video. I will say this, I haven't seen a tune from John put out that much on Dart using any dyno other than his, which is strange since 2wd Dynojets are super common and the Dart has been around since 2012. Maybe I'm wrong, perhaps there are dozens of high powered Dart dyno results out there for his tune and I'm just missing them.

            In either case, I see no evidence that the Tork tune (assuming that's what it was) was more powerful as I know ours pulls back in these conditions and I have no idea how theirs behaves.

            In short, I don't know if it's legit, I do know that our tune isn't made for the 2wd dyno, it's made to put down power on a real road and has to be measured via one of the methods I have described. We know with relative certainty that they tune specifically for a 2wd dyno and if it is higher on a 2wd dyno, I don't think it matters.

            Now, let's discuss John's custom tune. Taking a competitor's tune, and increasing the power is something any amateur can do. It's incredibly simple. No reputable tuner sends out a tune that's on the ragged edge of destruction. So increasing the power is simply a matter of taking the competitor's tune and cranking up the boost and or ignition timing. For example adding 8 degrees of ignition timing (over the stock curve) by itself will add about 30 horsepower in this case. Nobody sends out tunes that way because it's a bit of a risky way to do it, fuel quality, air temps, etc. become too critical. The point is that simply cranking up the heat on a competitor's tune to show more power is child's play. I'm not saying that's what John did, obviously I wasn't there.

            It's also easier to get more power from a car that's in your shop. If we had that Dart in our shop,, or even if we didn't we could bump the power up into the 230s, we didn't because that's not what the customer bought.

            As for Eddies claim that his Spider has 247rwhp, well, maybe. I don't know what it had on the dyno on that day, but I do know that it didn't have that at the Dragon. Toby drove it and reported back to me. It was decently quick, but not in that range, at least not on that day, and not on real roads. It also lost 2 out of 3 drag races (or maybe it was 3 out of 4) to a 500 Abarth running an EC Phase 2 tune, also with the same 1752 turbo. Of course that single race it did win is the only one they want to talk about.

            That was a year ago, where are all the customer 247whp 124s out there? Could it be that they don't exist?

            John's listing of various maps, and insinuating that we don't know how to tune is just laughable. Our tunes have been successfully competing on and off the track for years, and usually winning. We are not the ones who try desperately to get copies of our competitor's tunes so we can look at them and any copies our competitor's do manage to get tend to be older versions, so they can't keep up with us by simply copying.

            In short, it's just a commercial, and not a very convincing one at that.

            Greg
            Last edited by [email protected]; 02-12-2019, 01:59 AM.

            Comment


            • #83
              On the subject of goal post moving. I have never moved the goal post on this. I pointed this out in 2013 which was before Diesel Gate, at which point the phenomenon became almost common knowledge.

              I have maintained and still maintain that above a certain power level and usually at or around 5000rpm a tuned MM Fiat will pull power if the wheel speed sensors don't see what the ECU interprets as normal conditions. In practical terms, that means that to measure power reliably you need a dyno with linked and monitored rollers for all four wheels or some sort of road dyno software that measures the rate of increase in engine RPM and takes into account other factors like weight, gear ratios, tires sizes, etc.

              Now, you may be able to find a place where for brevity I said 4wd dyno and later clarified exactly what I meant, as I don't really feel like typing "hydraulically linked and monitored rollers" every single time I mention this. My position on this subject has been consistent.

              So far in this thread, I haven't even seen John put down a goal post. I don't know if he agrees this is real or not. Hopefully he clarifies that soon so we can move forward.

              Greg

              Comment


              • #84
                Originally posted by TorkMe View Post

                100% agree with the requirement of linked dyno's. Some AWD cars and very few single axle cars require a linked dyno.

                OK, we are getting somewhere. Do you agree that the Fiats with the MM ECUs are among those "few single axle cars"? That's the question here. I feel that you almost answered the key question, but sort of dodged it. You know we are talking about Fiats here. Do you, or do you not think that the phenomenon we are talking about is real?

                Originally posted by TorkMe View Post
                the problem being, a stock Fiat 124 or 500 doesn't suffer from this phenomenon. So, how would you explain that?
                We are talking about TUNED cars here, not stock cars. I'll be happy to talk about stock vehicles and provide evidence of how they behave once we finish the primary discussion, and you answer the question that's been posed over an over.


                Originally posted by TorkMe View Post
                Stock tuned cars with no mods on a 2WD or AWD linked dyno have very little difference in power output. Its only when tunes start getting added to these ECU's that there is a problem.

                Again, I'll be happy to discuss stock cars at some point, but not yet. We don't need to get further off track when you haven't even taken a stand one way or the other on tuned cars, which are the subject of this discussion. I also disagree with your definition of "problem". It's not a problem that a 1980s tech dyno doesn't work well on a 2015 car. I can't use my timing light any more either, and my dwell meter has a lot of dust on it.


                Originally posted by TorkMe View Post
                The tuners in Japan are tuning ththe 124 and 500? If so, have they tried both 2WD and AWD with the same acceleration curve programmed into the load cells?
                I can't speak for Japanese tuners that I don't even know. I suppose you could ask them. I'm not sure that it matters though. If you are arguing that a tune can be made specifically for a 2wd dyno, that's a different debate, but it's not the topic here.

                Originally posted by TorkMe View Post
                Now, there is the small concern with the FCA engineer claiming that this doesn't make a difference, but we will have to wait for that video to drop before I can prove this.

                I'll wait right here.

                Greg

                Last edited by [email protected]; 02-12-2019, 02:31 AM.

                Comment


                • #85
                  Originally posted by TorkMe View Post

                  Next... I cannot point out the tune flaws. Reason being, any maps I post and data that I share will be information that EC can use to fix their current tune. This makes it very difficult to give facts on this issue.
                  John, literally nobody is asking you for information on tuning, and certainly not anyone from EC. Furthermore, I disagree about the existence of the "tune flaws" that you can't point out. It's my opinion that your tunes, and nearly everything you make is flawed. Do I really need to go down that list? I am trying to keep this subject on track, but I feel you are intentionally trying to derail this thread.

                  Originally posted by TorkMe View Post
                  What I can say is this, several very important maps were missed in this Dart tune.
                  Oh really? Very important maps you say! Let's take a look.

                  Originally posted by TorkMe View Post
                  Maps that will trigger safety limits for:
                  Read what you just wrote. "maps that will trigger safety limits". Hmm, safety. Are you sure we "missed" these?

                  Originally posted by TorkMe View Post
                  turbo speed
                  cat overtemp protection
                  knock protection
                  mega knock protection
                  toque limits (under and over limits)
                  turbine temp protection
                  turbine speed protection
                  multiair oil temp protection
                  per gear torque limit protection
                  IDC limit protection
                  air mass protection/over limit
                  I'm not sure if this is a joke or not. Did you miss the word PROTECTION used in those maps? I think it's well known that EC maps don't eliminate or significantly degrade the factory protections in the ECU like MEGA KNOCK PROTECTION. There are some cases where we alter some of those, for example, the turbine speed is commonly altered, a catless downpipe obviously eliminates the need to protect the cat and so on.

                  Originally posted by TorkMe View Post
                  hysteria and thresholds have not been increased for:

                  torque/nm
                  horsepower/kw
                  fuel mass
                  engine temp
                  ambient temp
                  boost air temp
                  turbo speed
                  turbine speed
                  exhaust temps
                  accel limits
                  decel limits
                  ramp rates of torque/nm
                  ramp rates of horsepower/kw
                  ramp rates for RPM
                  ramp rates for vehicle mass
                  ramp rates for decel and accel
                  fuel cut per cylinder
                  ignition cut per cylinder
                  ign coil dwell time per cylinder
                  MA dwell time per cylinder
                  Some of what you are saying is partially true but not relevant. I don't want to go to far into tuning 101 here, but there are several ways to change those things, and some are not things we want to change on every single tune. Just because you didn't see a change to accel limits doesn't mean we didn't do it. Clearly we did as acceleration is improved with our tunes.

                  Greg


                  Comment


                  • #86
                    This was John's post that started all of this.

                    Originally posted by TorkMe View Post

                    If the admin will allow it, I will give my feed back on this question/reason for the power drop off.
                    So far, he has made zero effort to follow through with what he said he wanted to do here. He hasn't even said if he agrees the car does it or not. At this point, John has made accusations about our tune being "flawed", provided zero evidence in regards to the dyno issue, and tried to change the subject several times.

                    I am going to be off the forum for a day or so. I sincerely hope in that time John comes through on his original statement, if not, I don't see the point in continuing this. I am willing to debate anything, but I think that we should stay on target, and this dyno question has been a focus of contention for the other side for years. Now that John is here, I was hoping for more.

                    Greg

                    Comment


                    • #87
                      Originally posted by aelfwyne View Post

                      That seems about correct.

                      The fighting right now is tearing apart the community. There are several issues both myself and people I know are working on with our cars, and nobody's posting publicly anymore because it always invites a fight if it is anything to do with a tune or certain vendor's parts.

                      Yes, EC and Tork are competitors, we get that.

                      Jumping into every thread, every forum, into instragram, facebook, etc, with broad declarations that this or that tuner is ripping people off and lying to everyone does zero to win real business, but has a real chilling effect on discussion within the community.

                      Personally, I've talked to pretty much 98% of the players involved in this whole fight privately, and there's a lot of personal axes people have to grind. Know what I say? Tough shit. Your own personal axes to grind aren't worth tearing the community apart. People have gotten their feelings hurt when things didn't go their own way, when other people lashed out in anger, when their cars didn't run like they expected, when someone didn't smile right on facebook, when this or that person threatens to sue that other person, blah blah fucking blah. Some people, it seems cannot be happy saying "Hey I'm John Q. Public and here's what I believe" without having to also say "My opponent, John Q. Smith, is a lying sack of shit who wants to eat your babies".

                      It's total and utter BULL SHIT. Most of the community couldn't give 2 shits about the personal arguments between "community leaders", right or wrong.

                      What does happen though is that people quit participating. People quit contributing. People quit taking risks. People stop admitting publicly when something on their cars breaks. People stop trusting anybody in the community. The community falls apart.

                      I guess for some that doesn't really matter. They would rather see the world burn.
                      All true. I have stopped sharing for the most part. When I have an issue now that is related to a product, I don’t post about it, and instead I just deal directly with the vendor. I have a number of upgrades in progress now and I haven’t shared publicly where I normally would have because I’m tired of the BS. This helps no one, but it’s where we are at. A small number of people have ruined things, in my opinion.
                      2017 FIAT 124 Spider Lusso | EC Euro+Drive Phase 2 | EC V4 intake | EC intercooler | Full GWR exhaust with SportCat | Forge wastegate actuator | GFB DV+ | PTP Lava turbo blanket | Speedhut boost and IAT gauges | Cravenspeed gauge vent pods

                      Comment


                      • #88
                        Originally posted by sharkcohen View Post

                        All true. I have stopped sharing for the most part. When I have an issue now that is related to a product, I don’t post about it, and instead I just deal directly with the vendor. I have a number of upgrades in progress now and I haven’t shared publicly where I normally would have because I’m tired of the BS. This helps no one, but it’s where we are at. A small number of people have ruined things, in my opinion.
                        We created this place as a safe haven for people to share modifications without scrutiny or the Facebook nonsense. I hope you would feel free enough to start posting here.
                        EUROCOMPULSION - PERFORMANCE ABARTH, FIAT & ALFA PARTS

                        Comment


                        • #89
                          Originally posted by bsd103 View Post
                          Cut him a break in here Neuman lol. This could be some good discussion, save the shenanigans for facebook
                          I am not even going to read what Neuman has to say because this is how he deals with me, always has.

                          Comment


                          • #90
                            Originally posted by TorkMe View Post

                            I am not even going to read what Neuman has to say because this is how he deals with me, always has.


                            As I have said many, many times before. I am nothing if not consistent. Consistency seems to be a theme here, nah?

                            Comment

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