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What happened with this tune?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by romanoaf View Post
    If you want to seek truth, post your evidence; the only conclusive evidence posted here so far is the video from Greg. The evidence of that it can happen is apparent too re:dieselgate. It’s obvious that the function of multi air is to regulate the amount of air in combustion so, I’m genuinely curious to see how you’re measuring that from logging, and I’m also interested in the dynojet video.
    That's exactly right. VW's Diesel gate saga has shown that this is a real effect, and guess who else is being sued for the same thing? FCA!

    Greg

    Comment


    • #62
      Just a couple more fun facts.

      In one of their videos Dimsport says that their dynos have the HLS system (that's the second set of hydraulically linked and electronically monitored and controlled rollers) so that they will be "suitable to support the new generation of vehicles equipped with electronic control systems". This statement is at about 1:30.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJFsecX79uY

      Let's keep in mind that Dimsport also makes a 2wd dyno, they clearly had a reason for developing the HLS system for their 4wd unit.

      Here is a screen shot from a site in Japan where it seems the tuners there agree.

      Click image for larger version

Name:	JapanTuner.JPG
Views:	101
Size:	86.7 KB
ID:	2299

      I think the evidence that this phenomenon exists is pretty strong.

      In my video, the only variable between the two runs is the switch to 2wd mode. I haven't heard a single explanation from the other team as to why that might occur, and I put that video up a year ago.

      Greg

      Comment


      • #63
        Sorry, I have to interject something since we're in pursuit of truth and accuracy, here...

        Slander is spoken word, libel is written. Nobody is speaking here. I know the difference between these two because over many years I've been threatened with lawsuits for writing the truth about certain vendors who didn't like what I had to say. Still waiting for those lawsuit papers by the way...

        https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...-slander-libel

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by mneuman916 View Post
          Sorry, I have to interject something since we're in pursuit of truth and accuracy, here...

          Slander is spoken word, libel is written. Nobody is speaking here. I know the difference between these two because over many years I've been threatened with lawsuits for writing the truth about certain vendors who didn't like what I had to say. Still waiting for those lawsuit papers by the way...

          https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...-slander-libel
          Good point. My objection to these types of threats is that they are usually an attempt to squash opposing viewpoints by intimidation rather than with facts or evidence. It's pathetic and sad.

          Greg

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by greg@eurocompulsion View Post

            Good point. My objection to these types of threats is that they are usually an attempt to squash opposing viewpoints by intimidation rather than with facts or evidence. It's pathetic and sad.

            Greg
            Agreed 100%. Catching feelings and making threats will not advance this conversation at all. It literally serves no purpose in this discussion.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by TorkMe View Post

              If this forum is about getting information to the community, then let the people who know this area of the car talk without being harassed by the moderators or admin.
              Lol, don't come in here expecting to be treated differently or paint the situation (and play against our standards) before anything has happened. Especially since you do the same thing to people and vendors EVERYWHERE else on social media and the internet. It's comical. He's a moderator here, so deal with it. You don't set the terms for conversation here (you've had plenty of time doing that over the years).

              Don't turn this into a baiting conversation either. State your claim, or your case, and do so clearly. If you can't do that, then be on your way.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by FCACHATADMIN(2) View Post

                Lol, don't come in here expecting to be treated differently or paint the situation (and play against our standards) before anything has happened. Especially since you do the same thing to people and vendors EVERYWHERE else on social media and the internet. It's comical. He's a moderator here, so deal with it. You don't set the terms for conversation here (you've had plenty of time doing that over the years).

                Don't turn this into a baiting conversation either. State your claim, or your case, and do so clearly. If you can't do that, then be on your way.
                I am not expecting to be treated different, if I say something wrong, I expect to be proven wrong, not just assumed to be wrong.

                I have no reason to be her other than give accurate info and facts, in return, I wish that any argument to be countered with accurate info an facts.

                Can we agree on that?

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by greg@eurocompulsion View Post
                  Just a couple more fun facts.

                  In one of their videos Dimsport says that their dynos have the HLS system (that's the second set of hydraulically linked and electronically monitored and controlled rollers) so that they will be "suitable to support the new generation of vehicles equipped with electronic control systems". This statement is at about 1:30.

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJFsecX79uY

                  Let's keep in mind that Dimsport also makes a 2wd dyno, they clearly had a reason for developing the HLS system for their 4wd unit.

                  Here is a screen shot from a site in Japan where it seems the tuners there agree.

                  Click image for larger version

Name:	JapanTuner.JPG
Views:	101
Size:	86.7 KB
ID:	2299

                  I think the evidence that this phenomenon exists is pretty strong.

                  In my video, the only variable between the two runs is the switch to 2wd mode. I haven't heard a single explanation from the other team as to why that might occur, and I put that video up a year ago.

                  Greg
                  100% agree with the requirement of linked dyno's. Some AWD cars and very few single axle cars require a linked dyno.

                  the problem being, a stock Fiat 124 or 500 doesn't suffer from this phenomenon. So, how would you explain that?

                  Stock tuned cars with no mods on a 2WD or AWD linked dyno have very little difference in power output. Its only when tunes start getting added to these ECU's that there is a problem.

                  The tuners in Japan are tuning ththe 124 and 500? If so, have they tried both 2WD and AWD with the same acceleration curve programmed into the load cells?

                  Now, there is the small concern with the FCA engineer claiming that this doesn't make a difference, but we will have to wait for that video to drop before I can prove this.

                  Getting into the actual details of whats happening we have to focus first, on why this doesn't happen with a stock car

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by mneuman916 View Post

                    Agreed 100%. Catching feelings and making threats will not advance this conversation at all. It literally serves no purpose in this discussion.

                    No threats will be made from this point forward. If you have any technical input, I will be more than willing to listen and reply.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      First I want to address this "tune".

                      I have saved messages from Chris at EC stating that the tune for this car was in fact made for the turbo upgrade. When I have those saved DM from this Dart 1.4 MA customer, I will share them.

                      Next... I cannot point out the tune flaws. Reason being, any maps I post and data that I share will be information that EC can use to fix their current tune. This makes it very difficult to give facts on this issue.

                      What I can say is this, several very important maps were missed in this Dart tune. Maps that will trigger safety limits for:

                      turbo speed
                      cat overtemp protection
                      knock protection
                      mega knock protection
                      toque limits (under and over limits)
                      turbine temp protection
                      turbine speed protection
                      multiair oil temp protection
                      per gear torque limit protection
                      IDC limit protection
                      air mass protection/over limit

                      hysteria and thresholds have not been increased for:

                      torque/nm
                      horsepower/kw
                      fuel mass
                      engine temp
                      ambient temp
                      boost air temp
                      turbo speed
                      turbine speed
                      exhaust temps
                      accel limits
                      decel limits
                      ramp rates of torque/nm
                      ramp rates of horsepower/kw
                      ramp rates for RPM
                      ramp rates for vehicle mass
                      ramp rates for decel and accel
                      fuel cut per cylinder
                      ignition cut per cylinder
                      ign coil dwell time per cylinder
                      MA dwell time per cylinder

                      There are several function and monitoring maps that deal with limits inside the ECU for diagnostics and operational purposes, that have not been addressed also, but... those are far to numerous to list.

                      I cannot go through and list each and every individual map. Reason being, it would give EC a blueprint of what maps to use in order to build what I feel is a proper tune. Now, every tuner will have a different analogy of what a proper tune is. I will not get into a debate about proper tuning, just pointing out what I saw wrong with this particular tune.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by TorkMe View Post
                        First I want to address this "tune".

                        I have saved messages from Chris at EC stating that the tune for this car was in fact made for the turbo upgrade. When I have those saved DM from this Dart 1.4 MA customer, I will share them.

                        Next... I cannot point out the tune flaws. Reason being, any maps I post and data that I share will be information that EC can use to fix their current tune. This makes it very difficult to give facts on this issue.

                        What I can say is this, several very important maps were missed in this Dart tune. Maps that will trigger safety limits for:

                        turbo speed
                        cat overtemp protection
                        knock protection
                        mega knock protection
                        toque limits (under and over limits)
                        turbine temp protection
                        turbine speed protection
                        multiair oil temp protection
                        per gear torque limit protection
                        IDC limit protection
                        air mass protection/over limit

                        hysteria and thresholds have not been increased for:

                        torque/nm
                        horsepower/kw
                        fuel mass
                        engine temp
                        ambient temp
                        boost air temp
                        turbo speed
                        turbine speed
                        exhaust temps
                        accel limits
                        decel limits
                        ramp rates of torque/nm
                        ramp rates of horsepower/kw
                        ramp rates for RPM
                        ramp rates for vehicle mass
                        ramp rates for decel and accel
                        fuel cut per cylinder
                        ignition cut per cylinder
                        ign coil dwell time per cylinder
                        MA dwell time per cylinder

                        There are several function and monitoring maps that deal with limits inside the ECU for diagnostics and operational purposes, that have not been addressed also, but... those are far to numerous to list.

                        I cannot go through and list each and every individual map. Reason being, it would give EC a blueprint of what maps to use in order to build what I feel is a proper tune. Now, every tuner will have a different analogy of what a proper tune is. I will not get into a debate about proper tuning, just pointing out what I saw wrong with this particular tune.
                        Regardless of what Chris may have told him (about a tune made for that turbo), no other maps were given to him or made for him in regards to the turbo upgrade. None.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by mneuman916 View Post
                          Sorry, I have to interject something since we're in pursuit of truth and accuracy, here...

                          Slander is spoken word, libel is written. Nobody is speaking here. I know the difference between these two because over many years I've been threatened with lawsuits for writing the truth about certain vendors who didn't like what I had to say. Still waiting for those lawsuit papers by the way...

                          https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...-slander-libel
                          Not in Canadian law. Which is English common law.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by doverosx View Post

                            Not in Canadian law. Which is English common law.
                            That is the most asinine statement you've ever made, and completely irrelevant to the current conversation.

                            First of all, slander & libel all fall under the category of Defamation in Canada. Quebec has slightly different views towards defamation than that of the rest of the country and can be compared similarly to the US laws.

                            Secondly, to present a defamation lawsuit against an American, it would have to be presented in the state in which the defendant resides. At that point, the defamation suit is held to the standards of the laws in the state in which the defendant resides. At that point, any lawsuit brought forward would be considered Libel.

                            Do you just like to argue for the sake of arguing? Do you ALWAYS have to be right??

                            Comment


                            • bsd103
                              bsd103 commented
                              Editing a comment
                              "Do you just like to argue for the sake of arguing? Do you ALWAYS have to be right??" Yes, you've hit the nail on the head Stacey. It's always been this way. Argues even when people aren't arguing and just asking a question. It's honestly common among engineers though.

                          • #74
                            Originally posted by doverosx View Post

                            Not in Canadian law. Which is English common law.

                            Comment


                            • #75
                              Who said anything about legal action? I was pointing it out as an observation of morality.

                              @greg I apologize for the accusation because I did not seek clarification from you.

                              Comment

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