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  • #46
    Cut him a break in here Neuman lol. This could be some good discussion, save the shenanigans for facebook

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    • #47
      I'll also start on the conversation by saying that I think it's very likely if you're tuning these cars on a 2wd dyno you're not necessarily manipulating the correct maps that are used on the road under normal driving conditions. You may be able to make more power on the 2wd dyno, but what are the real world results (i.e. on a road or track) of a car tuned on a linked dyno vs 2wd? Prove me wrong (seriously not trying to sound like a jerk, I'd just like to see some proof - I'm an engineer and don't believe anything on hearsay).

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      • #48
        Originally posted by bsd103 View Post
        Cut him a break in here Neuman lol. This could be some good discussion, save the shenanigans for facebook
        Make no mistake, I've always welcomed open and productive discussion between opposing views. What isn't productive is playing the victim right out of the gate. If there is discussion to be had, I'd like to see it. I would hope that it remains civil. That remains to be seen.

        John if your intent is to come in here and have real, open discussion, then I couldn't welcome it with larger open arms. You're not at risk of being banned just for being who you are despite some of the rhetoric I've seen. If you want to do this, do it right and you'll have full reign to continue. Agreeing with one another is not one of the rules of the forum. Speaking of which, if you'd like to review them, the rules are located here: https://www.fcachat.com/forum/welcom...and-disclaimer

        For now, I think we're simply waiting for Greg's reply.



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        • #49
          Editing this post, brb
          Last edited by [email protected]; 02-10-2019, 10:20 AM.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by bsd103 View Post
            I'll also start on the conversation by saying that I think it's very likely if you're tuning these cars on a 2wd dyno you're not necessarily manipulating the correct maps that are used on the road under normal driving conditions. You may be able to make more power on the 2wd dyno, but what are the real world results (i.e. on a road or track) of a car tuned on a linked dyno vs 2wd? Prove me wrong (seriously not trying to sound like a jerk, I'd just like to see some proof - I'm an engineer and don't believe anything on hearsay).
            No, you tell me HOW the car *is pulling* power. I’ve demonstrated that with the exact same inputs (load, iat, coolant temp, oil) the car behaves identically on and off the dyno. If air, fuel and spark are the same, power is the same.

            Objectively, we don’t have enough information about Greg’s video regarding the dyno results we see. We also don’t know what calculations the dyno controller is making and therefore don’t know their computations.

            Let’s put it another way. The fiesta ST dynos at 185whp with a very similar torque and power curve as my car. My car, also scored a ~95mph trap speed which is exactly what the Fiesta ST accomplishes.

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            • #51
              I am looking forward to this discussion and I will do what I can to keep it factual and on track.

              John, (TorkMe) when you showed up here, you made the following statement:

              Originally posted by TorkMe View Post

              If the admin will allow it, I will give my feed back on this question/reason for the power drop off.
              I was looking forward to hearing you tell us about the "question/reason for the power drop off" but I feel you shifted the subject a bit and didn't offer an explanation, but still, I'll be happy to respond

              Originally posted by TorkMe View Post
              Ok, first we must address why people think the non 4WD dynos cause power to fall off.
              This one is easy. I know the car behaves differently on a 2wd dyno for several reasons. First of all, I can easily observe it and I have video evidence of this, which I posted some time ago. Here is it again.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGAkZctWtto

              Second of all, when dynoing in 2wd mode, on a higher powered car, we typically see a significant drop off above about 5500rpm. I can tell you, and so can our customers that just doesn't happen on the actual road with a Phase 2 Fiat 124.. Furthermore, other methods of measuring power, like Auterra show a power curve with essentially the same shape that we see when running on the HLS dyno with all rollers engaged. You don't have to take my word for it, we have customer results on our website, and they have been there for years.

              Those two things alone should easily be enough (actually, just the first one should be enough) but we also have 1/4 mile data. Now I know these 1/4 mile power calculators are at best rough guesses. They are typically not set up for 124s in terms of gear ratios, traction, average driver, etc. but they at least give a clue.

              in the case of a Phase 2 124 it's darn close to the power shown by this online calculator.

              Click image for larger version

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              Click image for larger version

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              I hope that answers your first question.

              Originally posted by TorkMe View Post

              What is happening inside the ECU (please post maps) that makes this happen.
              There is no way I will be baited into giving you ECU information that apparently, you don't have. Even if I did post the maps, I don't think a bunch of code would prove anything to the average viewer since it's meaningless to most people. It would only benefit you or other tuners.

              Originally posted by TorkMe View Post
              If there are not maps or reasons given, then... we start from scratch and pretend that its not a dyno issue but a tune issue.
              You want me to "pretend" .Forgive me John, but that seems a big crazy to me. I'm dealing in facts and verifiable evidence. That's what we do on this forum. I am not going to "pretend"


              Originally posted by TorkMe View Post
              we will have to wait for the FCA engineer Q&A session to be released, explaining how any dyno doesn't effect horsepower or torque.
              You mention this a lot. I think if the evidence was remotely solid you would have posted it by now. You have been attacking me on this subject from the safety of your closed facebook groups for years. I think if you really had something solid you would have posted the evidence. I suspect that when you do we will all see that it's either a big ball of nothing, or it's something that's easily dis-proven.

              Originally posted by TorkMe View Post
              If this forum is about getting information to the community, then let the people who know this area of the car talk without being harassed by the moderators or admin.
              Really John? Do you really want to claim that you are a victim of harassment? If you want to have that discussion, please do it in another thread and I'll be happy to entertain your comments on that subject.

              Greg

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              • #52
                Brodey, I really want to stay focused on the talk between John and I so I'll probably ignore some of your post just to keep this on track, but I'll address some of your comments here.

                Originally posted by doverosx View Post

                No, you tell me HOW the car *is pulling* power. I’ve demonstrated that with the exact same inputs (load, iat, coolant temp, oil) the car behaves identically on and off the dyno. If air, fuel and spark are the same, power is the same.
                That's false, just think it through a bit farther. Plus the idea that if you don't understand how something works, then it can't be real, is a bit strange.

                Originally posted by doverosx View Post
                Objectively, we don’t have enough information about Greg’s video regarding the dyno results we see. We also don’t know what calculations the dyno controller is making and therefore don’t know their computations.
                This isn't a dyno building thread. This car on the dyno shows different numbers when in 2wd mode vs 4 wheel. The only variable is that we link or unlink the other set of rollers. That's it. I'm not sure what calculations you are asking to see or how it's relevant to this topic. I think I have put up far more dyno information than anyone else in the Fiat market. What other vendor this market put up the "calculations"? I'm honestly not even sure what calculations you are talking about.

                Originally posted by doverosx View Post
                Let’s put it another way. The fiesta ST dynos at 185whp with a very similar torque and power curve as my car. My car, also scored a ~95mph trap speed which is exactly what the Fiesta ST accomplishes.
                There are so many variables there, I'm not sure it's that meaningful. Gear Ratios, driver and so on. Plus I have no idea how the ST behaves on the dyno. We know from govt. lawsuits that FCA isn't the only one who has built cars that behave differently when on a 2wd dyno. I'm not saying that the ST does, I have no idea either way.

                Greg

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                • #53
                  It’s not that I don’t understand Greg, I’m thinking you are the one that doesn’t understand. Air + fuel + spark = cylinder pressure -> force at a radius to the crank Center == torque.

                  There is a clear video of an Abarth with phase 2 on a linked dyno jet making LESS power with the 4 wheels linked together.

                  As for pulling above 5500, look at the accelerometer data and you’ll see that you’re wrong or all three EC cars in Ottawa that I’ve logged are broken. They all nose down above 5 grand.

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                  • #54
                    Well that's some arrogant shit by someone who knows a lot less than they think. Why don't you show us how the fueling and air ingestion and spark timing is identical at all rpms on a 2wd dyno if you're so sure and you've "proven" it's identical? I know you won't. A little humility would go a long way.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by doverosx View Post
                      There is a clear video of an Abarth with phase 2 on a linked dyno jet making LESS power with the 4 wheels linked together.
                      You have a link? I couldn’t find a video of one that ran connected.
                      13' Abarth

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by doverosx View Post
                        It’s not that I don’t understand Greg, I’m thinking you are the one that doesn’t understand. Air + fuel + spark = cylinder pressure -> force at a radius to the crank Center == torque.
                        Brody, I shouldn't have to hold your hand on this one. I know you are a smart guy, but I think you have let your bias on this cloud your thinking. You mentioned "air". What you measured is boost in the intake manifold and temperature. That's very different than the amount of air in the combustion chamber when combustion occurs. That varies tremendously due to the functions of multiair. Obviously if the intake valves are open a different amount or for a different time, that's going to have a large effect on the amount of air involved. . That's all I am going to say on that.

                        Originally posted by doverosx View Post
                        There is a clear video of an Abarth with phase 2 on a linked dyno jet making LESS power with the 4 wheels linked together.
                        I don't recall seeing that, but it's probably not on a 4wd dyno with speed sensors on the rollers or hydraulically linked. I have been very specific about this. Some types have enough slop in the linkage that the car can still detect that something is amiss. At Sema Toby actually talked about this with a rep from dynojet, who was aware of the issue. As for one car showing more power in 2wd mode, that doesn't surprise me. If anything it shows that the car did behave differently, which is what we claim.

                        Originally posted by doverosx View Post
                        As for pulling above 5500, look at the accelerometer data and you’ll see that you’re wrong or all three EC cars in Ottawa that I’ve logged are broken. They all nose down above 5 grand.
                        I haven't seen the graphs, nor do I trust your interpretation of the data to be unbiased. I've seen your comments in other places and I am well aware of your agenda.

                        As we have stated before, anyone with a Tork tune is welcome to come to our shop for a free dyno pull.

                        Greg
                        Last edited by [email protected]; 02-11-2019, 01:55 AM.

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                        • #57
                          Just so we don't get too far off topic.

                          I am not concerned with explaining why the car behaves as it does on a 2wd dyno. I am concerned with explaining that it DOES behave this way. For this conversation to be meaningful, and continue in a productive way, we need to know John's opinion on this. My opinion is clear. I'm honestly not sure what his real opinion is. I am hoping he states it clearly. It either does this, or it doesn't.

                          The question of why is of important to tuners, but not really anyone else. The end user is concerned about performance data and with having a verifiable testing procedure so they can see the gains in power. We have provided both. We have 1/4 mile data for the 124. I never took the 500 to the track, but I will. We have also provided ways that end users can check their gains, meaning OBD2 type dynos that measure acceleration via the rate of increase in engine RPM. We consider data from a 2wd Dynojet only relevent at low and mid range RPM.

                          I also want to point out, that we have put up more dyno data than anyone INCLUDING data from 2wd dyno jets, not only our own cars, but those of customers. I think we have been as transparent on this as possible.

                          Greg

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by [email protected] View Post

                            Brody, I shouldn't have to hold your hand on this one. I know you are a smart guy, but I think you have let your bias on this cloud your thinking. You mentioned "air". What you measured is boost in the intake manifold and temperature. That's very different than the amount of air in the combustion chamber when combustion occurs. That varies tremendously due to the functions of multiair. Obviously if the intake valves are open a different amount or for a different time, that's going to have a large effect on the amount of air involved. . That's all I am going to say on that.



                            I don't recall seeing that, but it's probably not on a 4wd dyno with speed sensors on the rollers or hydraulically linked. I have been very specific about this. Some types have enough slop in the linkage that the car can still detect that something is amiss. At Sema Toby actually talked about this with a rep from dynojet, who was aware of the issue. As for one car showing more power in 2wd mode, that doesn't surprise me. If anything it shows that the car did behave differently, which is what we claim.



                            I haven't seen the graphs, nor do I trust your interpretation of the data to be unbiased. I've seen your comments in other places and I am well aware of your agenda.

                            As we have stated before, anyone with a Tork tune is welcome to come to our shop for a free dyno pull.

                            Greg
                            The slanderous accusations from EC LLC are getting ridiculous. My agenda is to SEEK THE TRUTH. I have never received any money nor any incentives from anyone to be in a conflict of interest or ethical bias and I'll put my professional engineering license on the line. Stop the slander or I'll send you a different set of letters.

                            As for your replies, it is clear that you don't understand because what you have done again is make assumptions to what I've tested and how I've completed my tests. Your reply has many contradictions in it, think carefully. If you weren't slandering me I wasn't going to reply.

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                            • #59
                              If you want to seek truth, post your evidence; the only conclusive evidence posted here so far is the video from Greg. The evidence of that it can happen is apparent too re:dieselgate. It’s obvious that the function of multi air is to regulate the amount of air in combustion so, I’m genuinely curious to see how you’re measuring that from logging, and I’m also interested in the dynojet video.
                              13' Abarth

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by doverosx View Post

                                The slanderous accusations from EC LLC are getting ridiculous. My agenda is to SEEK THE TRUTH. I have never received any money nor any incentives from anyone to be in a conflict of interest or ethical bias and I'll put my professional engineering license on the line. Stop the slander or I'll send you a different set of letters.
                                Nobody is accusing you of receiving money or incentives, I'm not sure where you got that. I am saying that in my opinion you are biased and that you have an agenda. Throwing around an accusation of slander is over the top. Threatening to sent me "a different set of letters" is not a valid debate tactic and I think it does nothing to further the conversation or add to the community.

                                Originally posted by doverosx View Post
                                As for your replies, it is clear that you don't understand because what you have done again is make assumptions to what I've tested and how I've completed my tests. Your reply has many contradictions in it, think carefully. If you weren't slandering me I wasn't going to reply.
                                OK, if I am wrong then point me to the thread where you said you measured the mass of air entering the combustion chamber and provided some evidence as to how it was done. If you you already did that somewhere, then I'll apologize. I seriously doubt you did.

                                Greg
                                Last edited by [email protected]; 02-11-2019, 07:51 AM.

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