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  • What happened with this tune?

    Trying to understand what happened with the stuffed turbo tune on the dart in this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzlWBWTmbIM
    The car was making low power and running really lean, so was this car running the wrong tune? I feel like there are some unfounded claims against EC's tunes being made because of misunderstandings - do we have more information on what happened with this? The "multiair community" can spread misinformation like wildfire sometimes, so I think it would be good to get some factual perspective on what happened (I find it hard to believe this video is remotely representative of the tune intended for the stuffed turbo).

  • #2
    I was under the impression that upgraded turbos run best with Phase 3? I believe they were running on Phase 2 if I am recalling that video correctly

    Comment


    • #3
      Its called competitor B shooting across the bow of competitor A, plain and simple to build up business for competitor B.

      The car was not running a big turbo tune and further more if we ran our cars lean, like it was claimed, it would have been an issue a very long-time ago.

      Another idea:

      They claim the cars can be dyno'd "accurately" on a 2wd dyno with tune modifications.

      So was our tune modified to be able to run on a dyno?

      What else was modified within our tune?

      Was our tune actually applied to the car?

      Lots of questions to say the least. With so many variables and questions, how are we to answer accurately?
      Last edited by Chris@EC; 12-30-2018, 01:59 PM.
      EUROCOMPULSION - PERFORMANCE ABARTH, FIAT & ALFA PARTS

      Comment


      • #4
        Ahh yes, the story that just keeps on changing.

        First the accusation was that EC "made up" the dyno issue and it was all a fabricated lie to sell tunes.

        Then it was a limiter in the ecu that EC forgot to/can't tune out, thus causing an issue on the dyno. Wait, so it is an issue? I thought it was fabricated and there wasn't an issue at all?

        Then it wasn't a limiter but the car going into catalyst protection because the tune is too lean causing exhaust temps to skyrocket. Too lean... and none of the countless people who have data logged an EC tune have ever noticed this?



        And now, after all that, they throw an EC tuned car on a dyno (which according to them isn't tuned properly to be on a dyno to begin with) and expect people to take the results at face value.








        Comment


        • #5
          Yeah the problem is people are taking the results at face value. And to clarify, phase 2 is different between the 500 and the 124. I opened this thread up to give the opportunity to demonstrate that these claims are bogus and explain why they may have seen those results given how the testing was performed, etc. I think there are a lot of eyes on this, so it's a good discussion to have

          Comment


          • #6
            I can say with 100% certainty (and I can prove this) that the tune on the car received from us (prior to whatever someone else did to the car or tune) was a normal P2 map for the Dart (and it had not been updated for quite some time). It was not custom by any means or made for a bigger turbo in anyway. Continuing to mention "custom big turbo tune" or that the tune was "written for this big turbo" is a flat out lie and fabrication.

            The owner knows this, so either they're going along with the narrative (because they think it benefits them), or they've misled the individuals making the video. This situation in the past has been the same group of individuals seemingly spending a large amount of time trying to attack our company on social media and other places. I simply don't have the time (we are way too busy with actual business) nor the desire to go everywhere online to defend these arguments. But this particular instance is traveling to grounds for something much more serious.

            As soon as I have time to edit and upload it, we have a video that shows with absolute certainty that these cars do, in fact, behave differently in different dyno configurations (something else claimed by the same group of people, that we have been lying about and intentionally misleading this platform in regards to). It is real, unaltered evidence, not conjecture.

            Most people that view these situations seem to assume that there is some balanced or even-handed feud going on between both parties, but no, this is mostly all from one side and based purely on personal vendettas, which is not a smart or professional way to handle business by any means. That alone, to a neutral observer, should be cause for a closer evaluation of what is really going on. Instead, some people just take this nonsense at face value without inquiring about anything (or just asking us), or about the intentions of what is being done. And then continue to spread the information without regard to whether or not it's factual. Sensationalism at its finest.

            We're not going to be deterred from our goals or be sucked into some internet argument game, especially when most of it is baseless to begin with. There's too much work to do, and all it does is ruin the platform and ownership morale for everyone else.

            Comment


            • #7
              Not sure if this is Toby or Greg, but I think this needed to be said as I think a lot of people are being misled in the community. Looking forward to the video! Normally I wouldn't encourage even acknowledging what happened here, but I feel the EC reputation within the community is being impacted by the accusations and insinuations made. This is not good clean competition and bad for the community/owners.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by bsd103 View Post
                Not sure if this is Toby or Greg, but I think this needed to be said as I think a lot of people are being misled in the community. Looking forward to the video! Normally I wouldn't encourage even acknowledging what happened here, but I feel the EC reputation within the community is being impacted by the accusations and insinuations made. This is not good clean competition and bad for the community/owners.
                Toby here, and yes I agree completely. It's really not good for anyone across the board.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by tuning@EUROCOMPULSION View Post

                  Toby here, and yes I agree completely. It's really not good for anyone across the board.
                  The funny thing Toby, is they throw shade on the tune and then (not sure if same video or it may have been a tuning live stream) say what an awesome and knowledgeable guy you are. I'm not even sure they know who works on the EC tunes? haha.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by tuning@EUROCOMPULSION View Post
                    I can say with 100% certainty (and I can prove this) that the tune on the car received from us (prior to whatever someone else did to the car or tune) was a normal P2 map for the Dart (and it had not been updated for quite some time). It was not custom by any means or made for a bigger turbo in anyway. Continuing to mention "custom big turbo tune" or that the tune was "written for this big turbo" is a flat out lie and fabrication.

                    The owner knows this, so either they're going along with the narrative (because they think it benefits them), or they've misled the individuals making the video. This situation in the past has been the same group of individuals seemingly spending a large amount of time trying to attack our company on social media and other places. I simply don't have the time (we are way too busy with actual business) nor the desire to go everywhere online to defend these arguments. But this particular instance is traveling to grounds for something much more serious.

                    As soon as I have time to edit and upload it, we have a video that shows with absolute certainty that these cars do, in fact, behave differently in different dyno configurations (something else claimed by the same group of people, that we have been lying about and intentionally misleading this platform in regards to). It is real, unaltered evidence, not conjecture.

                    Most people that view these situations seem to assume that there is some balanced or even-handed feud going on between both parties, but no, this is mostly all from one side and based purely on personal vendettas, which is not a smart or professional way to handle business by any means. That alone, to a neutral observer, should be cause for a closer evaluation of what is really going on. Instead, some people just take this nonsense at face value without inquiring about anything (or just asking us), or about the intentions of what is being done. And then continue to spread the information without regard to whether or not it's factual. Sensationalism at its finest.

                    We're not going to be deterred from our goals or be sucked into some internet argument game, especially when most of it is baseless to begin with. There's too much work to do, and all it does is ruin the platform and ownership morale for everyone else.
                    If the car is limiting power you will see either less air, fuel or spark. I don't see any behavior that is different. The requested and measured torque numbers via ECU are identical and any throttle body closing on a dyno was exhibited on the road. I posted detailed observations about this on broken fiat.

                    Since I can't replicate the car pulling power what so ever, I believe that there may be a software differentiation between 2 and 4wd modes. Perhaps, the computed coefficients are the reason why you may observe higher horsepower numbers. There is no narrative, just science.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mneuman916 View Post
                      Ahh yes, the story that just keeps on changing.

                      First the accusation was that EC "made up" the dyno issue and it was all a fabricated lie to sell tunes.

                      Then it was a limiter in the ecu that EC forgot to/can't tune out, thus causing an issue on the dyno. Wait, so it is an issue? I thought it was fabricated and there wasn't an issue at all?

                      Then it wasn't a limiter but the car going into catalyst protection because the tune is too lean causing exhaust temps to skyrocket. Too lean... and none of the countless people who have data logged an EC tune have ever noticed this?



                      And now, after all that, they throw an EC tuned car on a dyno (which according to them isn't tuned properly to be on a dyno to begin with) and expect people to take the results at face value.




                      As you know there are many modifier maps that weighted and applied over base maps. There were a number of things but targeting 16:1 AFRs is not evidence of catalyst protection. Dumping fuel near fuel cut is evidence that there may be catalyst protection tables, used as a modifier to the base AFR maps. I was able to black box some of this by controlling external variables and swapping hardware, once I was able to control environment variables I was able to replicate the hypothesized behavior of catalyst protection.

                      It is staggering to see the benefit in good cold airflow into the 500's engine bay. The ECU is operating in a completely, and very beneficial, environment after one or two good pulls at above 50MPH.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by doverosx View Post

                        If the car is limiting power you will see either less air, fuel or spark. I don't see any behavior that is different. The requested and measured torque numbers via ECU are identical and any throttle body closing on a dyno was exhibited on the road. I posted detailed observations about this on broken fiat.

                        Since I can't replicate the car pulling power what so ever, I believe that there may be a software differentiation between 2 and 4wd modes. Perhaps, the computed coefficients are the reason why you may observe higher horsepower numbers. There is no narrative, just science.
                        Look Brodey, let's just cut the crap. We're both adults, and quite frankly I'm done with the niceties. You say it's science, no narrative? You come here to compare evidence, and discuss scientific observations, yet you also show up on social media in threads created by your new friends with the primary purpose of trashing our reputation and grandstanding in front of this car community, calling us liars openly (yes, you did that), etc, etc.

                        Why would I want to sit here and share/discuss with you what I've observed, and documented? Lol, no, not anymore. We have evidence (a lot of evidence) that shows exactly what the car is doing, and confirms the theory we've had all along. Maybe it's not something you've caught on to yet. I'm sitting on a 20+ minute long video that shows what is happening. But I'm not going to just release it because you or anyone else goes on the internet to ruin our credibility. We could have had an honest discussion here. If we were so concerned with "marketing" this theory to sell parts, as you and your buddies have implied, it would have been in my best interest to make it available long ago.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by tuning@EUROCOMPULSION View Post

                          Look Brodey, let's just cut the crap. We're both adults, and quite frankly I'm done with the niceties. You say it's science, no narrative? You come here to compare evidence, and discuss scientific observations, yet you also show up on social media in threads created by your new friends with the primary purpose of trashing our reputation and grandstanding in front of this car community, calling us liars openly (yes, you did that), etc, etc.

                          Why would I want to sit here and share/discuss with you what I've observed, and documented? Lol, no, not anymore. We have evidence (a lot of evidence) that shows exactly what the car is doing, and confirms the theory we've had all along. Maybe it's not something you've caught on to yet. I'm sitting on a 20+ minute long video that shows what is happening. But I'm not going to just release it because you or anyone else goes on the internet to ruin our credibility. We could have had an honest discussion here. If we were so concerned with "marketing" this theory to sell parts, as you and your buddies have implied, it would have been in my best interest to make it available long ago.
                          New friends? Really?

                          My car has never made 236whp, I was never able to keep up to any cars on track that were making over 200whp and around the same weight/gearing, etc. Not even close, that's why I said I was lied to. I also said, it's either a lie or that EC truly believed in their testing methodology and I said that it is likely the latter, not the former. So context of my comments is important.

                          I'm not out to ruin your credibility at all, I can't speak for others but I let the science be the science. Am I willing to be wrong, absolutely, anytime. If however, I see pitted pistons, I will tell the owner that I see pitted pistons. Uncontrolled combustions events cause pitting in pistons, I'll recommend a number of things but I've never said, "Toby is a retard he doesn't know what he is doing." I have never implied nor explicitly said EC relies on marketing, I still use the v4.1, FMIC, boost leak fix, etc. Maybe my "buddies" have (and actually I know they have). I don't take my private conversations out into public, but I do call them out and I do question them socratically as I do *WITH YOU AND GREG*.

                          If you have a problem with me or something I've said, message me in private and I'll clarify, resolve, fix, delete, etc, etc because I don't think you're a retard and I do think you are a competent freaking tuner. 3 tunes sold to you based on my reference in the past two months....let alone all of the referrals over the years. What really angered me was the ironic behaviors exemplified by many using hyperbolic and untrue claims about EC's tunes. Have you read my thread in brokenfiat? There is a sentiment for you and torky tork and any band wagoners. Paraphrased like this; "Both tunes are so damn similar, let's stop the fighting and get back to enjoying our cars."

                          I'll gladly fall on the sword if I'm proven wrong or if I'm shown that my communication was too terse, unfair, etc. I'm not perfect and I'm open to feedback, I'm not really into being called out in public.

                          PS, I just bought a used deathstalker HPSI kit. I'd have bought it from EC but it isn't sold through the site anymore.
                          Last edited by doverosx; 01-18-2019, 10:37 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by doverosx View Post

                            New friends? Really?

                            My car has never made 236whp, I was never able to keep up to any cars on track that were making over 200whp and around the same weight/gearing, etc. Not even close, that's why I said I was lied to. I also said, it's either a lie or that EC truly believed in their testing methodology and I said that it is likely the latter, not the former. So context of my comments is important.

                            I'm not out to ruin your credibility at all, I can't speak for others but I let the science be the science. Am I willing to be wrong, absolutely, anytime. If however, I see pitted pistons, I will tell the owner that I see pitted pistons. Uncontrolled combustions events cause pitting in pistons, I'll recommend a number of things but I've never said, "Toby is a retard he doesn't know what he is doing." I have never implied nor explicitly said EC relies on marketing, I still use the v4.1, FMIC, boost leak fix, etc. Maybe my "buddies" have (and actually I know they have). I don't take my private conversations out into public, but I do call them out and I do question them socratically as I do *WITH YOU AND GREG*.

                            If you have a problem with me or something I've said, message me in private and I'll clarify, resolve, fix, delete, etc, etc because I don't think you're a retard and I do think you are a competent freaking tuner. 3 tunes sold to you based on my reference in the past two months....let alone all of the referrals over the years. What really angered me was the ironic behaviors exemplified by many using hyperbolic and untrue claims about EC's tunes. Have you read my thread in brokenfiat? There is a sentiment for you and torky tork and any band wagoners. Paraphrased like this; "Both tunes are so damn similar, let's stop the fighting and get back to enjoying our cars."

                            I'll gladly fall on the sword if I'm proven wrong or if I'm shown that my communication was too terse, unfair, etc. I'm not perfect and I'm open to feedback, I'm not really into being called out in public.

                            PS, I just bought a used deathstalker HPSI kit. I'd have bought it from EC but it isn't sold through the site anymore.
                            You've also stated that we are liars, without your disclaimers. Called our supporters "Kool Aid" drinkers. I have so many screen shots of things you have said (in closed "secret" groups too) that contradicts your neutral party sentiments here. You've also ignored everything in the first part of my originally quoted post, you know the part about these videos and posts lying about what tune was on this Dart. Posts and video chats where you're present and active.

                            It is a narrative Brodey. You know good and well you weren't lied to, and you know exactly that we believe in our methodology. I'm not contacting you privately because Chris already did so, and when he asked if you were unhappy about something or if there was something we could do, you said nothing was wrong and we didn't need to do anything.

                            Yet you want me to air some grievance with you in private? No. I don't care what you want to talk about on forums or on social media, you're entitled to your opinion. But you can't be upset about being called out publicly for statements made publicly by the person or party you made them about, especially when that person believes them to be malicious or unsubstantiated.

                            I'll say the same thing you said to me. "If you have a problem with me or something I've said, message me in private and I'll clarify, resolve, fix, delete, etc, etc because I don't think you're a retard and I do think you are a competent freaking individual."

                            You can respond if you want, but that's all I have to say about it.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tuning@EUROCOMPULSION View Post
                              You've also stated that we are liars, without your disclaimers. Called our supporters "Kool Aid" drinkers. I have so many screen shots of things you have said (in closed "secret" groups too) that contradicts your neutral party sentiments here. You've also ignored everything in the first part of my originally quoted post, you know the part about these videos and posts lying about what tune was on this Dart. Posts and video chats where you're present and active.
                              I didn't ignore your post and I was active on a livestream video, so what? I still don't believe that you'd target 16:1 AFRs so either Torky Tork is lying, your index file is wrong or his index file is wrong.

                              Originally posted by tuning@EUROCOMPULSION View Post
                              It is a narrative Brodey. You know good and well you weren't ldfied to, and you know exactly that we believe in our methodology. I'm not contacting you privately because Chris already did so, and when he asked if you were unhappy about something or if there was something we could do, you said nothing was wrong and we didn't need to do anything.
                              I've also said that if you and I were to get on a dyno together, you could also solve the drivability issues I was having. The kool aid drinkers jumped to blaming me and telling me that my car was broken, kool aid drinkers don't like criticism. They also started generating negative credibility about me because I summarized my experience with the tune and they only focused on the negative parts being said "casually and without proof" so I took my private videos and made them public. The kool aiders, lack character and integrity, and after defending my competence, after warning them (Do you really want me to show proof?), they got more ridiculous. I did what you are doing, defending myself. I additionally defended myself with proof.

                              Originally posted by tuning@EUROCOMPULSION View Post
                              Yet you want me to air some grievance with you in private? No. I don't care what you want to talk about on forums or on social media, you're entitled to your opinion. But you can't be upset about being called out publicly for statements made publicly by the person or party you made them about, especially when that person believes them to be malicious or unsubstantiated.
                              Yes. That's exactly what I would have wanted. I'm not a vendor and I act on my own, you are a vendor and represent the LLC that employs you. Are you Chris? No. You are Toby and you sir, are calling me out; not Chris. As for what is said on a BS group where joke and rip on other each other, the context illuminates what I thought. It's like in ethics class, conversations that are intended to be said to a group of 5 are for that group of 5. When someone publicizes that conversation, by way of distributing it to others, they are acting in a libelous manner.

                              Originally posted by tuning@EUROCOMPULSION View Post
                              I'll say the same thing you said to me. "If you have a problem with me or something I've said, message me in private and I'll clarify, resolve, fix, delete, etc, etc because I don't think you're a retard and I do think you are a competent freaking individual."

                              You can respond if you want, but that's all I have to say about it.
                              I like your edit. I'll think about the value of taking it offline with you.
                              Last edited by doverosx; 01-18-2019, 12:04 PM.

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